Marvel versus DC

14 thoughts on “Marvel versus DC”

1. One (hugely) important factor which you left out is the movies. While DC does movies like Superman and Batman, which are established characters that everyone knows, Marvel occasionally does movies (even if they’re horrible) on lesser known characters, which boosts up their sales. Also Marvel seems obsessed in making whatever’s happening in the book be easily accessible from someone watching the movie. The Surfer was back being the herald of Galactus when FF2 came out, when Spidey 3 was out Peter was in the black outfit again, etc. DC not only rarely does movies on any but the big, known characters, but the comics rarely line up with the movie, immediately disinteresting someone who tries the book because of the movie, and part of this is, as you pointed out rather well, Marvel maintains characters better.

   Hope you didn’t mind my extra commentary!

2. I’m a Marvel fan, primarily; my generation was introduced to Marvel and DC heroes via FOX’s animated lineup (X-Men: TAS, Spider-Man: TAS, Batman: TAS), so Marvel had two of the three big shows (I missed Superman: TAS as a kid, although I went back and bought the DVDs).

   From a strict marketing perspective, I think DC’s biggest problem is the in-story preoccupation with it’s own continuity; it’s difficult to win in this situation; casual readers are just confused, while the devotees who like continuity will usually end up disliking widescale revisions, especially since the nature of such revisions is usually to open more holes than they plug. The primary plot elements in the DCU in the last few years are all about continuity; IC changed continuity, most of the stuff flowing from that is about exploring or explaining how things are now (like all those backups in “52”); and now “Countdown” has the overarcing plot of Darkseid trying once again to reshape the universe (leading up the “Final Crisis” in 2008). Marvel’s events and direction, by contrast, are generally different in theme and focus, both from DC’s and from each other; if there’s one recurring theme, it’s “heroes vs. heroes” rather than villains (although 2008 promises to be the Year of the Skrulls), but the situations are different. Looking at Marvel’s event calendar for this year, they’ve got:

   The Initiative – I don’t really consider this an ‘event’ as much as a general story direction, but it’s about exploring the new world order created by registration, rather than continuity (which I contend is what much of the fallout from Infinite Crisis was really about).
   World War Hulk – this falls within the “heroes vs. heroes” paradigm, but I’ve always said that there’s a special exemption for the Hulk, since fighting other heroes is a fairly standard thing with him, it’s just the scale that’s different.
   Annihilation: Conquest – the sequel to last summer’s sleeper event, again dealign with ramifications. Comparable to the “Sinestro Corps” event in a lot of ways, which, coincidentally, I think is DC’s most probable success.
   – Messiah CompleX – not due for a few months yet, but being led up to by Endangered Species; this X-event is really a cleanup operation, since the House of M/DeciMation is the one recent big Marvel event that I think comprehensively misfired in its aftermath.

   DC is running “Countdown” and its various spinoffs, and it’s already performing noticeably lower than “52”; then there’s the rather under-advertised “Sinestro Corps” event, which I think is liable to be a big hit for them; and the lamentable “Amazons Attack”, which has the main miniseries selling lower than the “Wonder Woman” tie-ins (and take my word, it’s doing Diana’s book no favours).

   I think Marvel has done a much better job overall of using their events to energize and target specific groups of titles; with “Avengers Disassembled” they relaunched the Avengers line and made it #1; “House of M” and its spinoff “DeciMation” were a big direction for the X-Men that, as I said, didn’t work at all (although it did further the goal of making the Avengers #1); “Civil War” was the closest Marvel has come to a DCU-style mega-event, but it again placed major emphasis on making Cap and Iron Man major players in the DCU (their solo books are currently doing double (IM) to triple (Cap) their previous numbers); the “Annihilation” events were side-projects for the cosmic heroes that were major successes (when you get good sales from a “Ronan the Accuser” miniseries, you’re doing something right). “Infinite Crisis,” by comparison, was a linewide lifter that boosted everybody for a while, but that’s worn off by now, and I can’t really think of any specific characters that received a major boost in profile from it, at least comparable to Cap or Iron Man. We’ll see what comes from “52”; the Booster Gold series seems like a good prospect, but I think they’ve blown a lot of the potential for Black Adam’s miniseries by giving the game away in “Countdown.”

   “Sinestro Corps” is a good example of a Marvel-style targeted event; it’s about raising the profile of the two GL titles, and, provisionally, it looks to be a huge success. “Amazons Attack” is a really bad example of a targetted event; it’ll be a miracle if the aftermath doesn’t haunt Wonder Woman’s title for years.

   I like both companies to be strong; competition breeds efficiency and an urge to perform better.

   My picks for best of the year so far are:
   Marvel: Captain America #25
   DC: Green Lantern: Sinestro Corps Special

3. //Now, all these writers are talented men//

   I don’t want to nominate myself for “When Fangirls Attack,” but I would like to point out there this is a woman in that group.

   Only one, but… well, progress not perfection…

4. You might enjoy these two monthly articles on sales from The Beat:

   http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2007/06/28/dc-comics-month-to-month-sales-may-2007/
   http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2007/06/27/marvel-month-to-month-sales-may-2007/

5. I’ve only been reading for a little over a year but in my opinion, DC has much better stories then Marvel. I don’t think I’ve seen anything original in the Marvel universe (don’t burn me at the stake disclaimer: opinion based on less then two years of reading). Parts of the Civil War thing was done several times in DC including Watchmen and New Frontier. Despite the fact that I feel DC has stronger stories at least in the last year and a half, I tend to buy more Marvel comics. For me, that reason was because all the tie-in mags. While Civil War was going on, every major title had Civil War plastered in big font on the front. They made me feel that I would miss some big part of the story if I didn’t buy that title. Then the published lists so if you were collecting the entire event, you wouldn’t miss a single title. DC made a half way attempt at this with the OYL stamp they placed for a month or two on the top but had they done it right, they should have written a Superman without powers or Batman fighting his inner daemons and worked it into 52 (note again that I am glad they didn’t because for me it gave spotlight to previously unknown characters). It was like the DC Crisis was just another mini series that nobody would agree on. Can you imagine how much they could have done to tie in 52 with some of the lower selling titles? The Lightning Saga in JSA, JLA, and Countdown made me want to add both Legion titles to my pull list. For me, DC is like the independent film companies that focuses on the story both new and old and Marvel is the big timers pumping out the sequels. Nothing original but familiar. If money is your focus, familiar out sells every time. Movie sequels, pop radio friendly music, Microsoft Windows, and here regurgitated fan favorite comic stories… the money is in going with the flow.

6. Parts of the Civil War thing was done several times in DC including Watchmen and New Frontier.

   If you’re referring to Registration, that predates Watchmen by several years in the pages of Uncanny X-Men (and I doubt that was the first occurence of it either).

7. One thing which I would think helps marvel maintain dominance is that Marvel focuses on changing the status quo in the present. The flagship titles and characters don’t become stail, but hook new readers with compelling stories that continue to shake things up. Spider-man’s aunt is dying, his marriage may be coming to an end, his identity is known. Ironman is head of shield, and is know hated by his fellow heroes for only doing what he thought was right. Captain America is dead. The mutants of X-men are dying out. The avengers not only have Spiderman and Wolverine as members,but are divided into two ideologically seperate groups. And now, anyone could be a skrull.

   I can jump into any of the bigger titles marvel produces, and be able to understand somewhat what is going on, as, like you said, the characters as well as the costumes are familiar, but at the same time changes will come that will continue to interest me.

   If I pick up a DC book, I might have a grasp of what’s going on because of the iconic characters, but I’m not going to stick around long, because Superman today is changing very little compared with Superman of yesterday. A character without any change is a character that will stagnate and die (with the exception of Batman. Because he’s the ***-**** Batman.)

8. For further clarification, I’m not saying that Marvel doesn’t use old concepts too; but when DC’s going through a massive retro craze (and whether you think that’s good or bad is subjective; I know Rokk is in favour, for the most part), I don’t think its fair to accuse Marvel of doing “[n]othing original but familiar” compared to DC.

   In general, Marvel’s big event stories have been fairly notable breaks with the past; they depowered almost all mutants (which was a horrible idea, as I’ve said before, but it’s never been done before); they disbanded the Avengers (happened before) and thoroughly remade them; they totally overhauled how superheroing works in their universe at the moment (which is based on an old concept, but not one that has ever been taken to this extent, or portrayed as positively (despite the occasional insinuations of a police state)); they’re doing an epic Hulk saga that’s been going for more than a year (although the Hulk vs. Heroes template is a fairly longstanding one, it’s also fun, when done correctly).

9. That is why I’m glad that Marvel seriously cut down on the population of mutants and made a concerted effort to elevate the Avengers back to its status as Marvel’s flagship title.

   I don’t think its necessary to gut one franchise to elevate another (and I don’t mind the Avengers taking the lead for a while; God knows being constantly in the limelight was a bit of a drain on the X-Men); “DeciMation” basically removed the raison d’etre of the X-Men: mutants as the next phase of evolution, and nothing remotely compelling has replaced it (or really can); it means no need for the Xavier Institute, and hardly any need for the X-Men as anything other than ordinary superheroes.

10. @Island & everyone else, you guys are correct in everything you’ve said. I read watchmen about 6 months ago for the first time and New Frontier about the same time. I in no way claim to know what I’m talking about so all I can give is my opinion. I really enjoyed New Frontier because it was good a take on a lot of the characters origins. Also, a registration law had been passed and Superman was sanctioned by the government to bring in masked heroes and make them register their identity and follow US government guidelines. Superman went after Batman however he got away because of some bomb that he threw at Superman. The hero versus hero battle stopped because a bigger world war was coming on dumping dinosaurs on US soil (sounds a little like Civil War and World War Hulk). My comparison to Civil War was more directed toward New Frontier however I knew Watchmen was pretty old so I included that one too. I actually enjoyed the New Frontier story better then Civil War because the registration was one of the main stories but not the story itself. My opinion might have been partially due to the delays in print on the Civil War titles drawing out a war that could have been wrapped up months earlier.

    As a 27 yr old new reader, what brought me into comics was my girlfriend knew I liked the old Superman movies and she bought me the “Death and Life of Superman” novel. I read that and enjoyed the story so I picked up the Kingdom Come novel and the Crisis on Infinite Earths novel too. I had never been introduced to comics of any kind so this was a whole new world for me. All I knew was the Superman movies and Saturday morning cartoons (spider-man was my favorite). I found a local comic shop and asked about other comic book based novels out there. At that time, Infinite Crisis was on their third issue so he suggested I give that a try. My personality likes confusion because I enjoy figuring it out. I think everyone agrees that within a matter of 2 months you can pretty much know everything you need to know to understand the Marvel universe. DC was not that way. Its over a year later and there are still characters I don’t understand and others I confuse with some one else. I can see why that would frustrate most readers but for me that is what keeps my attention.

    Saying that Marvel is stale/recycled was an incorrect statement and I apologize if that offended anyone. I know the Revolution didn’t care much for the last Amazing Spider-Man book but I loved it. Peter is changing and I can’t wait to see what he does when he confronts kingpin.

    Rokk, you make a good point with some of those independent type titles you suggested. I didn’t care much for Iron man but the rest are characters that I really enjoy. I’m actually glad the big events are over so they can get back to character development. Btw, I wonder how many of those characters will turn out to be Skrull?

    As for DC’s big 2, Batman’s OK but Superman needs something to happen. His character hasn’t needed to change for two reasons. First, he has always been an outsider because of his alien status. He keeps the take me for who I am because no matter what I do, I’m still going to bee seen as an alien attitude. Second, they made him too powerful therefore the only way to get to him is through his friends. He has people he knows but it seems only Lois, Jimmy, and his parents are really close to him and I can’t see them doing much to any of them. Maybe if DC gets desperate enough, they’ll have Lois cheat on him causing a divorce crisis and then he can start dating the superhero community. That might actually be pretty funny.

11. The number of mutants has decreased, but the number of X-titles isn’t any smaller.

    Anyway, DeciMation doesn’t revert the X-Men to their old status quo; it’s utterly changed the whole concept: mutants are no longer the next wave of evolution; they’re a red-line species that has no natural hope of survival. Moreover, there are so few of them that there’s really no need to protect mutants against human prejudice; first, because almost everybody lives in one place; second, because they’re no longer a threat to humanity’s dominant position (there’s no chance anymore that the boy across the street could be a mutant).

12. In my opinion, Marvel markets a larger chunk of their titles/characters better than DC. If you look at the tops names in both companies (again, these are my opinions): Marvel has Spider-Man, Hulk, X-Men, and Avengers while DC has Justice League, Superman, and Batman. Who has the bigger stable going on in this marketing war?

    While Marvel is doing a better job of marketing a larger character base, DC has the more iconic characters. I’d like to compare this battle with the WWE vs. WCW in the 90s.

    The WWE kept losing their iconic wrestlers, so Vince McMahon went out and made new ones. He marketed new names, new talent, and kept the process of renewal in place in order to compete in the future. WCW went out and bought themselves an iconic lineup and once they did that, aside from some small changes, they did very little to market anyone else effectively.

    Marvel hasn’t lost any characters, but they’ve known for a long time that they can market a larger group of non-iconic heroes to compete. As someone mentioned with the movies, DC does very little outside of Superman and Batman.

    Spider-Man was a good movie. Spider-Man 2 was an OK movie. Spider-Man 3? Haven’t seen it yet, but someone who has seen it (whose opinion I trust) says it sucked.

    X-Men was a great movie. X2 was an even better movie. X3 sucked.

    Hulk? Some hate it but as someone who isn’t afraid to give something a change, I thought it was ok.

    Fantastic Four was fairly cool, although, I didn’t like what they did to Dr. Doom.

    On the other side of the fence: Superman the Movie was a good movie. Superman II was much, much better. The rest of that series sucked ass. Superman Returns was a good movie but in the world of continuity, I don’t really understand where it fit in.

    Batman and Batman Returns were both good movies but the rest of that series left much to be desired. Batman Begins was awesome and I can’t wait to see The Dark Knight.

    What else has DC done outside of the “Big 2”? Nothing.

    I am anxiously awaiting the Shazam movie, although I know that it will probably be angled more towards children. 🙁

    I grew up collecting mostly Marvel titles because I perceived them to be more “adult.” DC does have the better stories, in my opinion, and Marvel just fails to gather any of my attention. Civil War was intriguing but I didn’t really want to buy any of their books. 52 and Countdown, however, I want to buy them all because they don’t concentrate on A list heroes… plus my Marvel Family is in them.

    Comic book fans DON’T like change and that is sad. How long can Bruce Wayne realistically be Batman, for heaven’s sake? He’s technically 60 or 70 years old right now. At least Batman Beyond took the idea of him hanging up the ears and someone else takes the mantle.

    Change is good. Besides, if you don’t like it, they can always retcon everything or reboot the universe.

13. Hey Rokk, great commentary!
    well I think something which neither you nor anyone else has commented on is that Marvel turns around and makes trade editions more accessible and faster than DC.
    I always blamed Marvel for being money grubbing and maybe they are, but the trades are a successful way of repackaging a product and reselling it which has proved very profitable for Marvel.
    DC takes a long time to put out their trades, look at “Identity Crisis” as an example. That series took over a year to be collected in TPB format and even when it was collected, it came out in hardback before a paper back edition was put out. Marvel has a fast turnaround in terms of putting out their trades and I think that helps them market their already iconic and highly marketable characters like the Hulk and Spider-Man. Some may even say to the point of saturation, but that’s just an opinion. What do you think?

14. I am more of a Marvel reader, but I have loved a good number of DC titles. I agree that the older continuity is sometimes confusing for the newcomer (but then the Spiderman or X-men world is so, nowadays), but I recall enjoying huguely DeMatteis and Giffen’s JLA/JLE/JLI, a team made mostly with heroes I hardly knew… So I bet that good writing can overcome lack of familiarity with characters pretty well.

    However, I believe that DCs real ace in the sleeve lies in non-DCU products like Watchmen or most Vertigo titles… Prestige, well-crafted products which will be likely to be sold for years, and not just when the hype is on. Marvel constantly creates successful bits of hype, but this occasionally muzzles good writing work in an individual series, by forcing it to meet a bog crossover storyline.

    Personally, I’m only too glad that my favourite Marvel series for years (Daredevil) is rarely perturbed by “big events”.

    Incidentally, a point of contact with readers where Marvel is in advantage is that the action is placed in real, existing places (Manhattan, Hell’s Kitchen) to which the reader can relate. DCs fictional cities work when the place is well defined (i.e. Gotham City), but often are places with no defined personality (How are actually Metropolis or Central City?)

    P.S.: Marvel may boost sales through movies, but I often wish they were better… I still ache at the though of the Affleck Flic “Daredevil” (Ben Urich with an ear-ring? Daredevil allowing a baddie to die in the railway? ugh!)

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